It's probably a good thing that Charles Curran was not born a few hundred years earlier. The Vatican, with its Inquisition terrors, doesn't have a history of being open to criticism, and he might have been treated much worse for speaking out against church doctrine.

Curran, a Roman Catholic priest who spent time in the Rochester Diocese, has been described as a lightening rod and rebellious. They are accusations he flatly rejects, saying among Catholics, he is not alone in his views. He is the author of more than 50 books on theology, and over the last 40 years, he has been the voice of liberal dissent on several sensitive issues, such as sexual orientation, abortion and the ordination of women.

Beginning in the late 1960's, Curran became embroiled in controversy while teaching at Catholic University in Washington, DC. In 1967, the board of trustees at Catholic University fired him, igniting protest from students and faculty. He later criticized the Vatican's position on conception under Pope Paul VI, which strictly forbids any form of artificial contraception.

Then, in 1986, the Vatican found Curran neither suitable nor eligible to continue teaching theology at Catholic University. Curran took Catholic University to court, claiming that his contract and his academic freedom had been violated. He lost his legal battle, but he was not, as some of his critics recommended, defrocked.

Curran has since taught at Cornell, the University of Southern California and Auburn University. He is professor of human values at Methodist University in North Carolina, a position he has held since 1991. He returned to Rochester last month to speak at Nazareth College on individualism, human rights and the Catholic Church.

"There is no doubt," Curran said, "that the strongest opposition to modern liberties and human rights during the 18th, 19th and into the 20th century came from the Roman Catholic Church."

Curran argues that the Catholic Church vigorously opposed all forms of liberalism - political, social, economic and most of all philosophical - because the rise of individualism could be interpreted as being separate or "sovereign from God." The existence of the church was threatened, Curran said.

But heading into the mid-20th Century, individualism, Curran said, was not as threatening as totalitarianism, fascism and communism. And under Pope John Paul II, who grew up in Poland under Communist rule, the Catholic Church underwent one of the biggest transformations in its history.

"Pope John Paul XXXIII first introduced the church to the importance of human rights," Curran said. "But later, Pope John Paul II made human rights the central part of his understanding of human society. As great as his contribution was, and it could be argued that it was the greatest revolution after Marxism, it only went so far. Gay rights, same-sex marriage and all homosexual acts are still seen as wrong, and I don't think that is about to change anytime soon."

The Catholic Church, Curran said, maintains that civil laws cannot replace "the good and natural in society," and gay marriage would cause a devaluation of traditional marriage.

"Of course, it's not going to hurt legal marriages," Curran said. "If the primary objective of human rights is to protect human dignity, then it becomes obvious that one cannot take away the rights of others. And I don't hear anyone in the Roman Catholic Church saying we should change our civil laws to eliminate divorce. Certainly divorce is more of a threat to legal marriage than gay marriage."

In an interview after his speech at Nazareth College, Father Curran talked about the future of the Catholic Church, his faith and the rights given to us by God. The following is an edited version of that interview.

City: Do you think your views reflect the views of a majority of American Catholics? Or are Catholics becoming more politically and socially conservative?

Curran: I think on the whole, there's no doubt that the church is moving toward a more conservative stance. I mean anybody who grew up in the Vatican II and is familiar with Pope John Paul XXIII's teachings, is frustrated by what has happened. I think in so many ways - having a voice in the church, the over-centralization that has occurred, the stripping away of the local bishops' conferences, Pope John Paul II's document on artificial hydration and nutrition for people in a persistent vegetative state [which says that feeding and hydration tubes should not be removed for the purpose of ending life] - it just seems to me that these things fly in the face of the rest of the Catholic tradition. It has become less open and less accessible for most people.

Where do you think the Catholic Church is headed?

I mean certainly, in the immediate future, the problem is it is headed in multiple directions. There are some people obviously that have decided to leave. There are some people who have stayed with the Catholic Church and are trying to change it from within.

But it's obvious even tonight that the average age in the audience is probably 65. That may be generous. But you could see the biggest problem may be attracting younger people. With all of their commitments to family, work and children, it's a very difficult thing. But like everyone else, the church needs this influx of young people and their involvement.

You have spoken out about the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality. Is it possible that the scandals involving priests have been a manifestation of the church's repressive views on human sexuality?

Maybe to some extent. But from what I have read, and I have not read everything on the subject, there is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. In most cases, we are talking about the later. And I am a little worried that some people, for whatever motivation, want to make that connection.

Would the Catholic Church have greater credibility today if it had allowed priests to marry and women to be ordained?

Oh, yes. I don't think there is any doubt about that anymore. This is a good illustration of how the congregation has gone out way ahead of the church; where people know and understand this. The credibility is lost when they don't see the church making the changes that are obvious.

There is a clear shortage of priests. Why do you think so few young men join the priesthood today?

Oh, there's no doubt there is a shortage, but I say to people that even worse than the quantity is the quality problem. I have said that I wish we would stop praying for this. It's a little bit of an issue of mine. We should be praying that every Christian has a vocation, and within that there can be many forms.

By the same token, there are plenty of priests for the ministry, but it might be better if we just didn't see some of them out there. And I'll leave it at that.

Are there more Father Currans out there and we are just not hearing about them?

Well, I think the Catholic theological community is on the whole quite supportive of, well, I don't want to say me. It's hard to generalize, but I am far from being a lonely voice. Let's put it that way.

Basically, what's happened, and by the way, it's something I wish didn't happen, but the more conservative Catholic theologians broke off from the Catholic Theological Society in 1977 and formed the Fellowship of Catholic Scholars. In their constitution, they say that their members have to support all of the teachings of the church hierarchy. By definition, I guess that would make the Catholic Theological Society representative of the more liberal wing of scholars. But it's a shame that this distinction is even made.

Some people would say that mystery is the essence of faith, but others might wonder how something as incredible as the Immaculate Conception is possible. How do you look at faith?

I guess I would not personally frame it so negatively. If you believe in the victory of Jesus over sin, we are all going to share in that victory someday. Therefore, for someone to have or to share their faith does not seem so unbelievable to me, because ultimately that's what you're saying. You're saying that ultimately you have hope that God's power of love will overcome the power of evil and death itself. Our redemption as human beings is the act of sharing in God's victory over evil.

That isn't so hard for me to believe.

How can the Catholic Church offer sanctuary for undocumented workers, but not women who choose to have an abortion or two men who want to marry?

Well, the obvious answer is that we have hierarchical teaching that is against the two things and in favor of the other.

Interestingly enough, I was going to bring up tonight the Catholic reaction by the Vatican of withdrawing from Amnesty International over their [AI's] position on abortion. I purposely did not, because I think their position on abortion law is more nuanced than one might think. You see, we may have to recognize that we don't give enough rights to the fetus. I think we've given too much, but there is still the danger that we might not give enough.

We always hear all of the criticisms against the Catholic Church, but what are some of the important contributions the Catholic Church has made to society in the last 30 years?

The role that the scripture plays, people working together and active participation in the liturgy, has made Catholics and all Christians more conscious of the social mission of the church than people were in the past. I think more of us understand the seriousness of suffering all around us and beyond our own borders, and there is a greater desire to become involved - to have meaningful response.

In the 1960's, you had the Catholic Family movement. We don't have those types of strong Catholic organizations today. That's why I say it is probably harder for Catholics by themselves to structure a response these days.

We're going through this national debate about how political we want our faith to be, with some people saying there should be complete separation of church and state and others saying faith is inherently political. How are Catholics approaching this?

Faith definitely is political. But I think it depends on your understanding of "political." I would never want to have happen in this country what happened in Europe with Christian parties - political parties connected to the church.

I think the history there has indicated that it is not a good thing. Therefore, it's really a question of being political without being partisan.