A new, 3000-seat theater for the Rochester Broadway Theatre League has been talked about since the mid-1990's. It can seem to be one of those projects that never gets enough momentum to come to life, but never seems to die, either. All these years later, it's still in the planning stages, and RBTL leaders don't yet have the money to build it.

Money is no small matter. The most recent proposal puts the cost of building a new theater downtown at roughly $70 million. And Rothschild says it will cost about $1.5 million annually to operate it.

Meanwhile, other arts and cultural institutions have raised substantial amounts of money for expansions and improvements, and new facilities have opened.

And although RBTL's board chair and leading advocate, Arnie Rothschild, announced last week that fund-raising has begun and plans are moving "full speed ahead," city officials remain supportive but cautious.

RBTL wants the theater located on part of the Midtown Plaza site, which the city owns. But the city's corporation counsel, Tom Richards, says the theater group can't get that land until it has raised all the money it needs.

And Richards raises another concern: Midtown is being eyed as a possible site for another large project: MCC's new campus. And, says Richards, one of the easiest places for MCC to build on the expansive Midtown site is the location that RBTL is considering.

"One of the things we don't want is to be waiting a decade for RBTL to be raising its money," Richards said in an interview last week.

Last year, Nazareth College opened its renovated Arts Center, after raising $10 million. The Strong National Museum of Play opened its $37 million expansion in 2006. The Rochester Museum and Science Center raised $1 million to create a spacious new gallery, which it opened in 2006. And it raised additional money for its natural science exhibit Expedition Earth, which opened in 2007.

The University of Rochester opened the renovated Eastman Theatre - now called Kodak Hall at the Eastman Theatre - last year, and it plans to open a new addition to the Eastman complex in December. Fund-raising efforts for the Eastman, which are continuing, have raised $31.3 million so far.

To some critics, the success of these other organizations raises questions: Why hasn't RBTL been able to raise funds for a new theater by now? Does the failure to raise money for construction indicate anything about the public's support for RBTL productions - and about RBTL's ability to fund the operating costs?

Does the success of other institutions indicate that RBTL simply hasn't gone about fund-raising the right way?

Or is it unfair to compare RBTL to the others? And: is the other institutions' success actually a good sign? Does it mean that this community, despite its economy, continues to have substantial philanthropic resources for the arts?

RBTL still has no public or private commitments for the theater, and Rothschild says he recognizes the funding challenge. But he insists that the new theater is closer to reality than ever before. He's even planning on a 2014 opening season.

And last week, he issued a press release saying that RBTL is convinced that the city and county are sufficiently on board with a theater being built at the Midtown Plaza site. Now, he said, RBTL has started "the 'quiet' phase" of its fund-raising efforts.

The plans for the RBTL theater have gone through multiple incarnations. Perhaps the closest the theater came to fruition was during the Renaissance Square discussions, when it was seen as a component of that massive downtown revitalization project. When Ren Square collapsed last year, RBTL immediately shopped the theater piece of the project to developers and suburban municipalities, as well as to the city.

Several suburban towns and developers expressed interest, but RBTL leaders had always hoped to build the theater in the city, and in the end, after months of talk with city officials and private developers, they chose Midtown.

Site selection has been only half of the problem, however. Unlike Monroe Community College's downtown campus, funds to build the theater have never been attached to the project.

RBTL hopes to get some of its money from private sources, but most would come from state funds, the sale of tax credits, and other non-private sources.

Rothschild says he's confident that RBTL can raise at least the $15 million in private money, much of that from naming rights. But that still leaves the theater about $55 million short.

While Mayor Bob Duffy has said repeatedly that the city can't contribute to the cost of building or operating the theater, he and county officials have agreed to help seek state funds. That may not be easy, though. State legislators will want to see a commitment of private money before they'll sign on. Another of the other funding sources - the sale of tax credits - may be complicated.

If, as Richards says, all of the money has to be raised before RBTL is guaranteed a Midtown location, RBTL has its work cut out for it - and not an unlimited fundraising window.

Will RBTL be successful? Raising a large sum of money for arts and cultural projects is possible even in this troubling economic environment, says Daan Braveman, president of Nazareth College. In fact, he says, raising money for the Arts Center renovation was one of the easier projects he's worked on. Braveman attributes that to Nazareth's commitment to community service. And in its plan for its arts center, it was looking at the community's needs as well as its own.

"There was a discussion at the time about building a mid-size theater as part of Renaissance Square," says Braveman. "They were talking about spending $60 million. I was thinking, Rochester already has a mid-size theater. It's called Nazareth Arts Center. And I said, for $10 million we could turn the Arts Center into the area's premier mid-size theater."

It wouldn't be just any mid-size theater, however. Its mission would include serving a unique segment of the arts.

"We were thinking of an arts center that focused on dance," he says, "because we have brought in every major dance troupe from around the world over the years. And, of course, we have a wonderful relationship with Garth Fagan."

But the arts center's 11,000-square-foot theater was looking worn after 40 years of use, and the stage wasn't well suited for dance. The renovation project, says Braveman, was coupled with a vision of creating a dance festival that could become a major regional attraction similar to the Rochester International Jazz Festival.

"We took a look around, and we found that there was no real dance festival like what we've been talking about near here," says Braveman. "The closest is Jacob's Pillow," located in Becket, Massachusetts, about an hour east of Albany. Every year, that festival draws dancers, choreographers, composers, and thousands of dance enthusiasts from around the world.

Nazareth held its first dance festival this past July, drawing about 4,000 visitors. The college lost money on it, "but they all lose money in the beginning," Braveman says. "We're hoping that four to five years from now, people will say, 'If you really love dance, you have to go to this festival,' which happens to be at Nazareth."

Like Nazareth, the Rochester Museum and Science Center's $1 million expansion of the Riedman Gallery began with a specific idea and need, says Kate Bennett, RMSC's president. RMSC needed space for staging traveling exhibitions.

"With your idea, you're speaking to the community's needs, and then delivering on that promise," says Bennett. "Museums are here to give a destination to cities."

The 5,000-square-foot Riedman Gallery is a third-floor addition to the Elaine Wilson wing of the museum. It opened with an exhibition called "How Things Work," which was designed as an exploration of everyday devices such as thermostats and speedometers. One large floor-to-ceiling window panel can be removed to allow exhibits to be crane-lifted to the third floor if necessary.

The Strong National Museum of Play opened in 1982 - as a substantially smaller building, with a different name (simply "Strong Museum"), and an entirely different mission. In its first full year, it drew 155,000 visitors, says Laura Sadowski, senior vice president for institutional advancement.

"But then our attendance started to drop off dramatically," says Sadowski. Strong's senior management understood that the museum had to change if it was going to remain relevant, she says. "And we were lucky to have the guidance of a supportive board of trustees. I can't emphasize that enough."

By the mid-1990's, museum officials began re-branding the museum into the only museum in the world devoted entirely to the concept of play. Strong took a huge risk, but it has paid off in a big way.

"We knew that we had to do more to attract families with children, and we had to be more interactive, friendly, and welcoming," Sadowski says. "When we started talking to people, we were asking them to help us build something. It wasn't just to expand. It was to create something entirely new."

The museum raised an astonishing $37 million and in 2006 doubled in size, making it the second largest children's museum in the country.

But raising the money wasn't easy. And how money is raised is often linked to where it is coming from.

"The common scenario is to put a large amount of money down," says Sadowski, usually through a board member, "which sets the fund-raising ball in motion. But we didn't have that. And we didn't have a history of being reliant on government funding. What we did have was a lot of long-time supporters."

About $1.4 million was raised through competitive grants and with Representative Louise Slaughter's support. Most of the museum's funds, about 90 percent, were raised privately, says Sadowski.

"People don't give unless they're asked," says Sadowski. And making that request takes more than a clever marketing plan. "The challenge we all face is, how can we convert more of our customers to donors? And more importantly, what are we doing to substantiate our own worth to people so they want to donate to us?"

Any organization can talk about raising money, says Sadowski, but the key question is: How do people feel about your organization?

"What is their emotional connection?" she says. "That's the difference between a customer and a donor."

For Nazareth's Arts Center, funding came almost equally from public and private sources.

"We had almost immediately three $1 million donors, people who had not given such large amounts to the college before," says Braveman. "That got us started."

The funding for RMSC's new Riedman Gallery was a gift from the Riedman Foundation. John Riedman, says Bennett, was a former board chairman who was extremely proud of Rochester's history of inventors. He wanted to fund educational exhibits that would inspire creativity and innovation in the museum's young visitors.

Riedman's approach to philanthropy is typical. Many people make small charitable donations, but that's not how major projects get funded. "There's a difference between a philanthropic investment and charitable donations," says Jim Thompson, the University of Rochester's senior vice president for advancement.

"There are many reasons for making the investment," says Thompson, whose in-house team conducted the Eastman Theatre fund-raising. "There are some obvious reasons. The gift is eligible as a tax write-off. But the vast majority of us want to be helpful to other people. It makes us feel good."

When working with private sources, Thompson says, you're not asking someone you don't know to write a check for $10 million.

"Raising this kind of money requires building long-term relationships, and doing that requires listening to people," he says. "What do they want that money to do? That's what you really need to know." Maybe the donor's father loved classical music, so a scholarship fund to the Eastman fulfills a need, he says.

Thompson agrees that every expansion or new construction starts with a vision, but it takes more than that, he says.

"Other people need to see the genius of your idea," he says. "But understanding the philanthropist's motivations is critical. Think about it: It's an illogical behavior. You're asking someone to make themselves poorer to help someone else they've never met and will probably never know."

Thompson's team has raised $18.3 million of the Eastman Theatre funds from the private sector; about $13 million comes from the public sector.

To support efforts for the public money, says Thompson, one of UR President Joel Seligman's first goals was to increase the university's profile among lawmakers in Albany.

"Building a new coalition to approach Albany was something President Seligman saw as very important," Thompson says.

In fund-raising, the UR has some advantages over other organizations, says Thompson.

"We never stop," he says. "There's always something that the university needs money for, whether it's research, the laser lab, or the hospital. And we're trying to change the world and make it a better place. We're trying to discover cures to diseases here. And people get that. I think showing viability is more of a challenge in arts funding."

But sometimes potential donors see the UR as a wealthy institution that doesn't need the help.

"Raising money is hard work," says Thompson. "It's not for the timid. There's a higher bar that this kind of funding has to meet. These are dear dollars."

Who does the fund-raising varies with almost every organization and project, says Thompson. Presidents and board members are usually important players. Some organizations turn to outside professionals, but the visibility and character of an organization's upper management is important. Philanthropists are looking at organizational leadership for an indicator of how well a donation will be managed.

"When you're able to sit down with donors, you must have some track record of high-level success, and a clear need that is informed by undisputable facts," says Strong's Sadowski. And both Braveman and Bennett agree that one of their most important jobs, one that requires a lot of their time, is securing money and resources.

But there's nothing more powerful than the sale you've already made, says Thompson.

"The best salespeople are the donors who have already given," he says.

Some of what the other institutions have done, RBTL has done as well. So what has been the problem?

An obvious one has been not having a firm location or specific design. Several years went by while two different committees discussed the possibility of a large multi-theater arts center. At one point, in fact, Midtown was the preferred location of some supporters.

Then came the idea of linking the arts center - and the MCC campus - to a bus station to get federal transit funds, resulting in the plan for Renaissance Square. Had that forced marriage not come about, maybe RBTL would already have its theater. Instead, the theater, MCC, and the bus station were in a holding pattern as millions were spent, designs changed, costs rose, public enthusiasm flagged, and, ultimately, the project died.

For several years, though, RBTL seemed certain to get a new theater at Ren Square. Moshe Safdie's initial design for the theater created a lot of excitement, and even when that plan was deemed too expensive and was scrapped, planners quickly came up with a revision. The project seemed to be moving ahead. Why was not a dime raised during that period?

Rothschild insists that the plan still wasn't solid. The city hadn't formally signed on - and, in the end, it never did.

"If you gave me $15 million for naming rights for a theater at Ren Square and the project died," asks Rothschild, "what would you do?"

Certainly Arnie Rothschild, who has become the face of RBTL, is no stranger to selling. As president and CEO of Normal Communications, an advertising and communications company, he's been in the persuasion business for years. But he says now that he may have sold the RBTL theater concept incorrectly.

The case for a new theater has been primarily based on RBTL's conclusion that the Auditorium Theatre on East Main Street is obsolete. It is too small to accommodate the large sets of many big Broadway shows. It has no air conditioning. And patrons have complained about the parking for years.

Critics have argued that the Auditorium could be renovated to correct the problems, and Rothschild has tried to dispel that notion. Last year, with the help of a local developer, he gave tours of the Auditorium to community leaders to show that even if the improvements were possible, they would be made at a huge cost - about $100 million. That would far exceed the cost of building a new theater.

Rothschild also had to walk a fine line with his criticisms of the Auditorium.

"One of the things we had to be careful about is not to discourage patrons from coming to the shows while selling the new theater," he says. But that has given some critics an additional argument: If the public has already been supporting the Auditorium's shows, if there hasn't been a substantial drop in ticket sales, why is a new theater needed?

The Auditorium simply doesn't meet the demands of today's big musicals, says Rothschild. But that's probably been the wrong message, he says. The new theater should be built downtown, he says, because it will be a big catalyst for revitalizing downtown.

Adding to the problem: in RBTL's quest for a new theater in the past year or so, the public discussion got off track, focusing less on the need for a new facility and more on Rothschild himself. The comments on this newspaper's website, for instance, became increasingly personal, aimed at Rothschild.

"I became the debate, not the theater," says Rothschild. "But," he adds, "this theater will drive building more condos around Midtown and increase the number of taxable properties downtown. It will bring more people downtown."

The idea of a theater as an urban economic engine is not far-fetched. Cities across the country have seen turnarounds in their declining downtowns after building large theaters and performing arts centers. Fort Lauderdale and Raleigh are just two examples. The theaters weren't the only developments in those cities, but they served as catalysts, spurring other development.

"Downtowns that have come back have done so with large arts centers as one of the venues," says Jennifer Leonard, president and executive director of The Community Foundation, a large philanthropic organization. "I think if people here understood the potential for a downtown theater and what it can contribute to street activity, they would be much more supportive."

The question of the theater's location may seem to have been settled for now, but it's still contingent on funding, public and private. Rothschild says that a major gift for naming rights is in the works. And some forms of public funding that weren't available when the project was first discussed have proven to be successful funding vehicles today, he says.

And in discussing her own projects, the RMSC's Kate Bennett agreed with Leonard that philanthropic funds haven't dried up in Rochester. "There's still 'old money' in Rochester," says Bennett, "and 'new money' has been made here.'"

Still, $70 million is a lot to raise for a downtown theater. And some say Rochester may not be ready for a project of this type after the demise of two other ambitious but risky projects, the Fast Ferry and Renaissance Square.

"That would be unfortunate," says Leonard, who is a strong supporter of a new downtown theater - and of Rothschild's vision. "As a community, we have to get past this. Rochester was built on taking on risky endeavors."

Mary Anna Towler contributed to this article.