A card produced by Republican state senators illustrates New York City's power: Majority Democrats are concentrated downstate. Republican senators represent districts throughout the state.
When State Senator Joe Robach proposed the 51st state of Upstate New York, people seemed to either love the idea or laugh at it. (You can count me in the second group.)
The fans love it either because they hate New York City or because they think upstate taxpayers send too much money down there. The snickerers among us love the city. And we know that upstate gets more money from Albany than we put in. New York City subsidizes us.
When I first heard about it, Robach's proposal just sounded flaky, yet another sideshow from someone in a state government that seems to be nothing but sideshows. The core of Robach's argument isn't flaky, though. And it'll resonate with a lot of people.
Robach defines "upstate" as everything north and west of Westchester-Rockland. And he says he's not talking about forcing the divorce down anybody's throat. He simply wants the issue put on the ballot. Let the people decide.
The odds are against him. Regardless of the popular vote, the state legislature would also have to approve the new state. So would Congress. And I don't think an upstate secession would solve any problems. But the issues behind Robach's proposal are well worth discussing.
New York City and the rest of the state are "very different, in so many ways," says Robach. "We have more in common with Pennsylvania and Ohio than with New York City. The needs are different. The expectations are different."
New York City is vastly wealthier than upstate communities, and many businesses find it essential to be located there. "They don't have to grow jobs," says Robach. "They have a captive audience. We don't, and people are voting with their feet."
"Right now," he says, "every decision that's made is very heavily influenced by the New York City delegation. And they adopt policies that work better in their city than they do upstate."
The card reproduced here - being handed out by Senate Republicans - gives you a sense of what Robach's talking about. Democratic senators are concentrated in the New York area. Republicans are spread around the state.
"The leaders of both houses, every division and check in government is run by people from one city and people in one party," Robach notes.
Kent Gardner, president of Rochester's Center for Governmental Research, backs up Robach's contention about downstate's strength. "There's such a substantial difference in median income upstate and downstate," he says. And because traditionally many New York City businesses have been highly profitable, "they can afford a level of taxation and regulation that upstate firms simply can't," he says.
"When you're in an area like New York City," says Gardner, "you can afford to have very stringent cleanup regulations, to require that you make it extremely safe" when companies want to build on a polluted site. Upstate legislators, on the other hand, might not require as much cleanup.
With Democrats now in control of the Senate, upstate "has ostensively lost a voice in the legislature," says Gardner. And he worries about the future. "Scenario 1: New York City gets poorer" - the high-profit firms move to New Jersey or Connecticut, for instance - "and we end up picking up part of the tab."
Scenario 2: New York City stays rich "and the legislature continues to pass laws that only work in New York City."
"Upstate just can't keep up," says Gardner, "whether you're talking about Medicaid policy or environmental policy or pensions for public employees. With all of these things, richer societies are more generous than poorer ones."
Robach - a Mets fan who says he loves New York City - insists that upstate legislators try to treat New York City fairly. But the reverse, he says, isn't true. There are frequently bills that benefit only "cities over 1 million," he says. "I always vote for those things, out of respect for their home-rule autonomy." But when there are bills designed for upstate's needs, "we get ‘no, no, no - we're one New York."
"We'll very frequently have folks from Manhattan - where they've cut down every tree, bulldozed every hill -tell us what we should do with our open space. I would never say, ‘This is what you should do on rent control, on buildings over 10 stories. But in reverse, we're kind of the stepchildren" who need their supervision.
Wouldn't upstate lose out if we divorced ourselves from the wealthiest part of the state? Robach thinks we'd come out ahead, that if we passed our own laws, we'd have lower taxes, fewer mandates, fewer regulations.
I don't agree with all of the arguments made by Robach (a solid conservative) and Gardner (whose concerns echo those of the region's business leaders). Many of the laws they object to deal with important labor and environmental protections. And if we lower taxes, I know what will be hurt: education, child care, that kind of thing.
Nor is this a partisan issue. When Republicans were in charge of the Senate and George Pataki was governor, local governments still got plenty of unfunded mandates. Both Republicans and Democrats have permitted the state to expand its debt. And every time cities pushed for more school aid, Republican senators made sure that their districts - even wealthy districts that could do without it - got some, too.
Gardner says he can't imagine upstate ever becoming a 51st state. I can't, either. Gardner isn't sure secession would make a big difference anyway, at least at first. He thinks Upstate New York would start out with all the laws the current state has now, including those that business leaders find oppressive. "The underlying cost factors in the state are deeply embedded," he said. And we'd still have the divisions over policy that we have now: business versus labor, cities versus suburbs. "I expect that we would start out with what we have and have to claw back," says Gardner.
And I hate to see us headed down a path of divisiveness. I like the state's diversity.
Besides: The issue is not that New York City's legislators are always wrong and upstate's are right, or that Democrats are wrong and Republicans are right. There's plenty wrong in this state. We do need to rein in spending. Some public-employee benefits are way out of line. And that doesn't even touch on campaign financing, corrupt elected officials, legislature leaders with too much power, and a dysfunctional government. But it shouldn't take secession to fix things.
The issue is whether the political leaders of this large, diverse state, with sometimes competing needs, can act on behalf of the common good (if they can figure out what that is), overcoming the lures and the threats of the special interests to reform what needs reforming and to spend what needs to be spent to care for the needy, educate the state's children, protect the environment, and encourage business development.
The issue, really, is whether New York State is governable.
Comments for "URBAN JOURNAL: Joe Robach's two-state solution" (9)
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Will Condo said on Dec. 17, 2009 at 5:53pm
Apparently Joe Robach have never been north of 59th Street in Manhattan during his frequent campaign fund-raising visits to New York City. Otherwise he would know that there are indeed hills and plenty of trees to observe, as well as in the Bronx and Staten Island. Perhaps he does not realize than in his home town of Greece, which embraces urban sprawl, the terrain along West Ridge Road has been leveled and trees removed even today to accomodate even more repetitive big box stores. Keep youir eyes on your own backyard Joe, and forget all the diversionary issues like dividing New York State from the reality of legislative disfunction, which you have been part of as both a Democrat and Republican.
Reg Neale said on Dec. 24, 2009 at 10:42am
How many more legislative “solutions” can the citizens of NY absorb before they finally suck us right down the drain? Notice that in the alternate universe where Joe Robach and his Albany colleagues spend their time, solutions never involve any personal accountability. Blaming the evil other party, legislative house, leader, or governor has always been legislators’ stock defense. That’s a little more difficult now that one party has a shaky dominance. So the new mantra is for upstate to blame downstate and vice versa? It’s just one more disingenuous entry in an endless parade of lame excuses. Legislators " in both parties - never want to take any responsibility for the tragic state of our state. I hope they will finally pay for it next November.
Jon Greenbaum said on Dec. 24, 2009 at 12:32pm
I was willing to seriously consider Senator Robach’s proposal to spin off Upstate New York as the 51st state. He makes a good point that Upstate Senators go along with downstate issues like rent control or buildings over 10 stories.
But how exactly is upstate hurt by downstate politicians who don’t reciprocate the good will? I expected an interesting discussion about downstate intransigence on the dairy compact, investment in small business incubation or regulations about volunteer fire departments.
Instead the reasons given are that the downstate politicians refuse to go along with fewer “mandates” and “regulations” and rules that business leaders find “oppressive.” So are they talking about Medicaid “mandates” and “regulations”? Over 70% of New York’s Medicaid bill goes to the disabled and elderly. Do we want to spend less and have fewer protections for our disabled and elderly relatives and neighbors?
Senator Robach stood up against business interests and championed raising the minimum wage in New York. But the new state would be completely controlled by the Republican Party and the Republican Party agenda would quickly be enacted. It would mean a return to Trickle Down Reaganomics. Lower wages, less investments in schools and the health of our communities is the low road race to the bottom. We’d be competing with Republican controlled states like Alaska, Idaho, Kansas, and South Carolina to see who could give away more tax breaks to corporations, cut services and drive down wages. That’s an improvement? I’m grateful that New York benefits from downstate Democrats who oppose that agenda.
Jim said on Dec. 30, 2009 at 10:31pm
"The fans love it either because they hate New York City or because they think upstate taxpayers send too much money down there."
Wow, I always knew upstaters were a little dense, but that takes the cake. Seriously, you subsidize us? Think about that one for a minute...you're off by about $10b big ones. If it were up to NYCers, we'd have split off a long time ago.
Tom said on Dec. 31, 2009 at 10:31am
The idea of splitting off of all of New York south of the Pennsylvania border (extended eastward) is neither new or far fetched. It is a logical outgrowth of hope and change. The "upstate, central, western, adirondack, and north coast, are all really agricultural regions who have lost their autonomy to the big brother in the south. Money is often all that is talked about, such as who sends more of it to whom, however all we have to do is look to our neighbors Ohio, Vermont, and Pennsylvania, to see that the new state of North York would not merely survive, she could once again thrive.
chumley said on Dec. 31, 2009 at 11:09am
One sore sticking point here: NYC needs upstate's water supply. They'd fight tooth and nail to keep that water flowing relatively cheaply. Look at the disputes between Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and California about use of the Colorado River.
The Science industry Business Library had a good exhibit on how vital clean water was to NYC's growth.
On the other hand, if a 51st state did happen, it's have NYC by the throat...
Justin said on Jan. 01, 2010 at 1:21pm
I'm a New Yorker (from New York City, that is) and I'm sick and tired of hearing this same old song and dance from Upstate New Yorkers all the time. I went to college in Western New York for four years, and while it's a beautiful area and some of the nicest, most genuine people I've ever met are from those parts, anyone who truly believes Upstate New York would be better off in any way without New York City is, simply put, completely delusional.
One can not credit New York City for having a robust tax base as one can not fault any other city/town in New York state for having a paltry one. It just happens to be a unique situation and one that developed naturally. To go back and attempt to divide up the state for the so-called "benefit" of Upstate businesses is impetuous. Senator Robach's argument about removing mandates and regulations to benefit businesses in Upstate New York is slightly understandable, however, it is probably not necessary to secede and/or divide up the state as a result of these intentions. Simply put, New York City sends exponentially more money to Albany than we get back and the money we get don't back is not sitting pretty -- It's funding other parts of the state which need it for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the tax bases in many parts of New York state just don't cut it for things like transportation and public works funding, money for schools, etc. With that, "fans" who believe that "upstate taxpayers send too much money" to New York City under the guise of remote intelligence need a reality check.
According to an article in New York Magazine, "If New York were its own country, its army, the New York City Police Department, would be the twentieth-best-funded army in the world, just behind Greece and just ahead of North Korea. Its GDP, $413.9 billion, would be the seventeenth largest, just behind the Russian Federation and just ahead of Switzerland. With more than 8 million residents, it would be more populous than Ireland, Switzerland, or New Zealand; roughly half the countries in the Middle East (including Israel); most of the former republics of the Soviet Union; and all the Scandinavian countries besides Sweden." That is certainly something to consider if Upstate New Yorkers believed they'd be exacting some sort of punishment on New York City by seceding.
I think that cultural division comes through misunderstanding in these cases. I endured much ribbing from Upstate New Yorkers for being from New York City (some fun, some not so fun), most of which was based on stereotypes and sheer ignorance (someone once told me that New York City "steals" all the state's money and gives it to "all the welfare recipients" who spend it on New York Yankees tickets). If that's not laughable ignorance, I don't know what is. Half the time I wanted to tell these people to look up and say thank you that New York City was part of their state and undoubtedly funding the roads they drive on, the schools their children attended, etc.
Long story short, Upstate New York as its own state is obviously never going to happen, but I guess everyone needs a dream. Maybe we can all dream of having an actual (effective) government in Albany one day and that might just be something we can all agree on.
Seth said on Jan. 01, 2010 at 7:18pm
I'm an Upstate Democrat and think the Democratic majority needs to give the minority Republicans more to do, so they don't have the time to dream up nonsense like his so-called proposal. NYC gives more in taxes than they recieve from the state. I think everyone in New York have spent too much time with people like Wubya and Robach. Everyone seems to want clean water, strong environmental protection, excellent schools, low-cost medical attention... but want someone else to pay for it. Many people complain New York's taxes are too high--they've obviously never lived overseas. Swedes may pay 80% taxes, but they get medical care when they need it without going into foreclosure and bankruptcy, free education from preschool to grad school, and they don't have to mortgage themselves and choose which medication to take when they've done their life's work. Perhaps if people were not so ignorant they would know what their taxes pay for.
Adam said on Jan. 02, 2010 at 2:28am
Why is secession treated like an act of war? Why do some think that we need to share a government in order to maintain cultural and economic partnerships?
I live in a dirt-poor town in upstate NY. I do not make up bogus economic reasons for secession. I just want to maximize my freedom and independence, whatever the consequences. I do not want to live at the expense of others, and I do not want to be governed by others. Why is this considered ignorant?
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